In this episode, our CEO, James Blake, and COO, Steve Smales, bring their experience from multiple university data migrations to the table, uncovering why these projects are among the most complex in the industry.

From budget constraints to legacy systems and navigating organisational complexity, James and Steve offer insights, strategies, and some frank truths about getting HE data projects right the first time. It’s thoughtful, honest, and packed with practical takeaways for anyone facing the mammoth task of moving university systems into the future.

In this, we discussed:

• Unique complexity in the HE sector [02:56]

• Budget pressures and tight timelines [03:09]

• What “clean data” really means [04:21]

• Legacy systems and decentralisation [07:55]

• Nervous CTOs and trust building [11.40]

• Governance vs. actual delivery [15.30]

EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION:

Disclaimer: This transcript was generated by an AI tool that did its best, but it's never met different British accents it could fully decode. Expect a few funny mistakes. Enjoy!

[01:13] - James B

Hi there, welcome to the Binary10 podcast. My name is James Blake, I'm the CEO of Binary10.

[01:20] - Steve S

And my name is Steve Smales and I am the Chief Operating Officer. Welcome to the series of podcasts where we like to talk about all things data migration related.

[01:30] - James B

And also we'll talk about the human side of running a business. So we hope you enjoy.

Here we are again.

Yes. How exciting. No, we're looking forward to this. Lots more to talk about.

It's going to be great, isn't it? It is. And it's data migration, which we love. But what's the topic today? What's the focus area that we're going to be doing?

[01:49] - Steve S

Well, we're actually going to start doing a series on data migration around the higher education sector. So this is the first one. And we're going to do, you know, what are the key challenges of data migration around higher education?

[02:04] - James B

Yeah. And I think this is so important. So before we get into it, you know, I mean, we've been supporting higher education organisations for over five years now, I think.

It's one of the, it wasn't the first sector that we were involved in with data migration, but it's one that's sort of close to both of our hearts now, you know, and we're quite passionate about. And we've also learned a hell of a lot about it in these last five years, having delivered for a couple of HE universities, both really exciting projects, lots of challenges, and lots of learnings about different, you know, impacts and challenges for data migration that we hadn't picked up on, you know, in the other sectors we've done. So no, it's going to be a good topic.

It's going to be a good series. And, you know, more importantly, you know, let's hope we can really promote some benefit to those higher education institutions. And yeah, maybe learn a few more things about it as we go through it.

But yeah, super excited.

[02:52] - Steve S

Yeah. And I mean, I think with higher education, it does have its own unique sort of attributes, doesn't it, that other organisations don't have. They're very complex organisations. So I suppose we need to cover that as well. But let's start off with, you know, what we think are the key challenges.

So, I mean, what do you think is number one? Is it funding? Money?

[03:10] - James B

 It tends to be in all sectors, let's be honest. But I think it's really important we talk about this because I think, as most people say, I've seen, you know, in the news and everything about how, you know, these institutes, their funding's being reduced, you know. Yeah, exceptional student reductions and things like that.

There's lots of challenges, you know, I'm sure, you know, there is for lots of sectors, but, you know, specifically here. So it's incredibly important, you know, the reality is they don't have big budgets, you know, and also that, you know, a lot of these types of projects involving data migration, you know, we always see it, don't we? We've done a podcast on data migration disasters. And that's where it's even more important for higher education projects that they get it right first time.

You know, they can't, you know, getting the amount, you know, obviously trying to complete all the work on the tight budgets is one challenge. But the risk of it not going well, and that happens, and that can double your budgets, you know, it literally can.

[04:05] - Steve S

When budgets are tight, it is important to get things, you know, organised properly up front, isn't it?

[04:12] - James B

It is, it is.

And I think, and so, you know, we've already looked at lots of ways that we can help with the challenge of funding. I mean, specifically, you know, we like to talk about data cleansing. It's one of our sort of key areas, isn't it? But actually, almost go a little bit against what we promote in that it's so important that, you know, that they understand that you don't have to have all your data perfect. You know, there are certain data items that need to be perfect and need to be right in order for the business to operate. But doing data cleansing properly and having a proper, you know, prioritization around all the known issues and the qualities with your data will really help, you know, ensure that, you know, you're not wasting time or wasting effort on cleaning data that actually won't impact your service or won't stop you from going live on a new solution. I think that's one of the areas that we'll discuss.

But I think that's the key one for me. That's the area that you can really ensure that you don't, you know, just waste lots of effort and energy on correcting data that you think is important when actually you can do it later on.

[05:10]- Steve S

Yeah, and that's something that we do is that prioritisation or the identification of not just known data issues, but finding the unknown ones that we can only sort of start to figure out once we start looking at the data.

But because we know what we're looking for, we can identify those quickly, prioritize, and then we can say, okay, you have to do these ones. You don't have to do these. And we can also, as part of the data transformation, we can maybe put in default values.

That means you don't have to start putting together enrichment spreadsheets or, you know, amending loads and loads of data in your legacy system. So, you know, we can target the data requirements that are needed and, you know, the lower priority ones we can say, well, leave it till later, or we'll handle that as part of the transformation.

[05:51] - James B

Absolutely.

And I think, and the other key one on funding, and it links back to another podcast we've done, you know, where we talk about planning and things like that, but it's so critical, isn't it? That early on in their program discovery, even, and kickoff that you think about data. Yeah. And that you bring those data experts in.

Now, that doesn't mean that you spend a fortune and bring in a big team and just assume they'll crack on. No, you know, you bring in a couple of individuals like ourselves. No, no.

But people that have the experience, that understand how to do it properly, and can actually kick off activity. So, when we think about cleansing, you know, you can get the business teams on clearing down purchase orders, you know, lots of activity that, you know, they've probably known about, but have never had the time to do. Well, let's really push it and get them to get ahead, because it's going to aid, it's going to aid the program.

And I think, you know, that will also enable you to then plan efficiently, you know, make sure you can understand where the pain points are, and cost it properly, right? So, I think that's really important, because then you can understand the budgets for data and what's required. And, you know, put the right plan, the right resources against it, because then that gives you the best chance of not having a disaster. And, you know, timelines being delayed and costs going up.

So, yeah, really key.

[07:04] - Steve S

Exactly, because you need to get, at least identify the data issues early, because you don't want to start doing your cleansing in the last few weeks before cutover, because then you're asking for trouble.

[07:12] - James B

Absolutely. And it's a shame, isn't it? We come in halfway through sometimes, you know, in fact, one of the higher education institutions we've delivered for recently, we came in halfway through. And so, you know, it's very difficult to manage at that stage, you know, which we're able to do, which is fantastic. And we're really pleased with that. But, you know, really key. So, you're absolutely right. I think funding is, we have to have that as the top one, don't we? You know, it's so important that, you know, you can't do these things on a whim. These are hard projects, you know, and data is difficult. And I think there's probably another topic we can talk about, about why, you know, data is difficult in higher education. But yeah, I think funding, I think you've hit the nail on the head there. I would definitely go for that as top priority. I mean, what other ones do you think?

[07:51] - Steve S

So, I suppose, yeah, the next challenge I was thinking of was the legacy systems and the complexity of those. You've got lots of very, very old, at some points, systems could be 20 years old. Universities are very different to maybe sort of, you know, big PLCs or things like that who are doing like, you know, upgrading every five or six years, something like that. But universities could have 20-year-old systems. They could have a lot that's been written in-house, a lot that's been customised, a lot of disparate systems over different departments. So, I suppose, yeah, that's got to be a key challenge.

[08:23] - James B

Yeah, and I can actually add an extra dimension to that because you're absolutely right. And one of the things that, you know, I just didn't even pick up on when we first engaged in one of our HE projects is that you assume a university is one entity.But actually, a lot of universities are made up of colleges, lots of different institutions, and they all tend to have their own systems. So, it's almost getting to the levels with higher education that, you know, similar levels to sort of shared service, you know, projects, because you're trying to bring all these different sources, you know, harmonised into one solution. So, you know, that is a huge challenge. And that's where data migration really is key because, you know, you can imagine you've got, as you said, 20 different sources, you know, bringing all this data in, in a controlled, structured way, you know, to then produce an output, the singular, you know, that everything marries up to. So, data migration has to be led by the design, you know, how is that new system going to run, you know, if certain parts of the university do a certain process in one way versus another, it's so important that functionally that design is harmonised and then we will have the guide, you know, then data can do its thing. So, that's definitely an area where you're absolutely right, you know, it's a huge challenge for data, that one, you know, and that's where, you know, having a, you know, a good company, a good methodology, you know, good tool set for data migration is key, but also it's, it proves where you have to reach out to those other work streams, you know, it's not just about data that, it's about the right design, good control change management, you know, setting the expectations of how, you know, whether it's professors, students, suppliers, whoever it might be within that university or higher education institute that's using the system, you know, that they understand what's changing, you know.

So, yeah, really good call out that one, you know, and we've definitely experienced that.

[10:05] - Steve S

Yeah, and it's a good point you make there about sort of, you know, the collegiate universities having different colleges and just universities in general are very complex organisations, because it's not, you know, a lot of the migrations we do for sort of PLCs, that side of things, you get a finance department, you've got an HR department, and that's really who you're dealing with. With universities, you've got different colleges, you've got the different professional departments like your HR and like finance department, but you've also got the faculties and the departments within those as well, and you've got students to consider as well.

So, it's very complex organisations, aren't there? So, that's another challenge is the complexity of university organisations.

[10:41] - James B

Yeah, absolutely massive. Yeah, so, I mean, I think, so definitely they're the two primary ones.I'm sure there's a few others out there. I mean, to be honest, you know, in the projects that we've done in HE to date, you know, we've had definitely, you know, challenges that are an effect of that, and we've had sort of the classic ones as well, but what else? What else is there specific to HE?

[11:02] - Steve S

I was just thinking of just another challenge in general, when you consider the funding and the legacy technology and the complexity of organisations is trying to get everyone on board, because of those three factors, getting everyone on board to actually say, yes, we are going to make that decision and go and change and upgrade to a new system. I mean, that in itself is a challenge, getting everyone on board and everyone agreed, because you've got so many different stakeholders.

[11:25] - James B

Yeah, and I think that's where, you know, we'll reiterate again, we can't say enough, so I'm happy to sort of replicate, you know, and replicate myself, but, you know, that planning, you know, just to your point there, you know, there will be senior members, senior programme leaderships, you know, finance directors, you know, HR directors within these organisations, they're extremely nervous about pushing the button to can we do this? And that's why, you know, we implore you, you know, spend a bit of that funding, because it will pay you back on, you know, three, six months of planning, just bringing in not the whole team, but just the key leads, the key members to go through it, to understand the scope, to understand the challenge and put a plan together that they can all sign up to. And at that point, you can push the button. But, you know, I see it so many times where the buttons are already pushed, you know, it's just like, yeah, this sounds like a great idea, you know, and sometimes, you know, let's face it, we see it quite a bit, it's more of a reaction, right? Because they've held on to their legacy system as long as they could do, because they don't want to spend money.

And all of a sudden, it's gone out of support. And, you know, classic, you know, everyone's moving to the cloud and all the rest of it. So, you know, it's a key time at the minute for a lot of HE institutions, you know, and they're all going to be faced with this, because, you know, you can only hold on to your legacy worlds for so long.

But, you know, it's important that we move and it's important that, you know, we progress to take advantages of all the new technology and solutions. And actually, that will pay the, I think that will pay these, you know, the HE sector back, you know, because it will really add, you know, their data is an asset. And these new tools, these new technologies will enable them to do so much more, which will benefit their organisation.

[13:10] - Steve S

So, yeah, and I think part of the move to new systems is actually to improve people's working lives as well, to make the business processes smoother, you know, and maybe get rid of some of the donkey work that people have to do now. So, you're looking to try and improve people's working lives by moving to a new system. But obviously, a lot of people are reluctant to change, especially if they've got systems and processes that have been in place for 15, 20 years.

There is that reluctance, isn't there? And part of what we try and do, okay, we're not sort of moving the whole system or only moving the data, but we try and give people the confidence that, yes, your data is going to be moved across and things will work in the new system. We will get the data right and your new system will work as expected. So, that's part of our job as well.

[13:49] - James B

Absolutely. And maybe we can finish on just one thing that I've personally experienced. And it's a difficult one to argue, but I want to raise it, which is, you know, one of the things we talk about is, you know, when we work with clients, you know, whatever sector, we want to embrace their culture.

You know, I think that's important. We have a culture, we have a level of professionalism and fun and all the things that we want to do as an organization. But the reality is you need to, you know, you need to sort of lean into the culture of the client so that you can deliver well with them.And one of the things I would say about HE projects that we've done is just, you know, they're an academic organization, society. We've all been there, we've all been at school, we've all been to university, and we've all had to write presentations and detailed, you know, dissertations and all those fun things. But I see it in the projects, you know, I see the level of detail and information and reporting that they demand because they're used to it, right? They're used to that level of information.

That's right. And I think, and I absolutely, you know, I love it too. I'm sure we'll talk, we'll have a podcast on documentation, which I'm sure, you know, no one will watch.

That'd be fun. Yeah, that'd be fun. Really looking forward to that one.

But it is important, it is important. But actually what I'm going to say here might be a bit against that, which is a lot of effort sometimes goes into doing that during a program. And I think getting the program reporting right, you know, so not overkilling it, you know, because I see so many people and we're doing a program now and I can see it within institutions where people are just spending hours and hours and hours and hours reporting up, you know, pretty reports, things that look great, you know, but actually they're losing, they're not really, you know, that's not really focusing on the delivery.

And it's important that we report. Absolutely, don't get me wrong. But I think that nailing that and getting the right level of reporting, and I think what I would say to HE, higher education sectors, is in order to age your project delivery, you know, don't, you know, don't completely change the way you operate, but just ease off a bit on maybe some of the level of governance.

You know, it's great. I mean, that is one of the positive things in HE, their governance is good. You know, they do things in an academic way and I think that's great.

Yeah. But I think they've just got to get the balance right. You know, they can just ease off in certain areas to just free up key people within the program to deliver.

Yes. You know, and I think that should definitely be looked at. So I think that's another thing that I just, yeah, wanted to raise and talk about.

Some people might, you know, be raising a few eyebrows and saying, you know, we must be doing detailed reporting. And yep, we must, but we have to do it efficiently because if we over-reg it, if we do too much on that, you know, and it's important, but that's not what actually gets the work done and puts the thing live.

[16:20] - Steve S

And are you eating up your budget by doing too much? It's getting that balance right, isn't it? No, absolutely.

[16:27] - James B

Another podcast. Well, hopefully that was, I think that was really good. Yeah, it was good, enjoyable.

Yeah, that's been really beneficial to, you know, our colleagues in the HE sector. I hope so. And I'm sure there's more to come.

But thanks, Steve. See you next time.

[16:40] - Steve S

See you next time.

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